Establishing Healthy Boundaries

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Brains Are Sexy, the talk show where we talk all things mental health. My name is Georgie. It's pronounced with a smile, and with me in the studio today, I have my lovely co-host, Ollie. Hello, everybody. And the doctor that's always in in our show, Dr. Brian Bello. Hello. So, guys, um, we're on episode four. I know. Very good. We're still here. We're still here. Three of us. Yeah, three of us, three of us. Um, but so we've been talking a lot about work and uh just kind of change in uh it's in itself. Um so I kind of wanted to switch gears a little bit because we've been hinting at this subject a lot in the last three episodes, but I wanted to kind of focus on boundaries today, because boundaries, as you know, as adults now, right? We've we've learned about them. Uh we've started setting some of them. Um maybe we've heard the word use before. But but like, so the reason why I wanted to to talk about boundaries is just because like it's funny to me that like even though we know that the word exists, right? And and you know, we try to set them as much as possible, it's really funny to me that a lot of folks don't really understand how they work. Or um maybe they do, and they're like super afraid or super guilty to uh enforce them or just even like communicate them. And so uh that's kind of like the whole reason for today's episode is we want to talk about boundaries. What are they? Um, what do healthy boundaries look like? And then kind of like setting a little roadmap on how to not only enforce them, but also be kind of like an ambassador for them, right? Like, how can we be better ambassadors for not only ourselves, but other people who are also kind of struggling to set their own boundaries? Because as we know, boundaries are very important and they are a lot of uh the foundations for any healthy relationship, no matter what uh type it is. So that's gonna be kind of like the framework for today's episode. So I want to kind of start off with a with a pretty easy question, right, before we get into some heavy stuff. Okay. Um, Olivia, how would you how would you describe what a boundary is or what are boundaries?

So I guess for me, um, the idea is I think of boundaries as sort of your um your rules in a in a relationship, right? Uh the things that you are not willing to compromise on when it comes to your relationship with somebody, or maybe a work relationship or a friendship, something like that. You know, not not just like romantic relationships, right? When I say that word relationship, I just mean in general. Um, but yeah, it's the things that you're not willing to necessarily compromise on, or things that you're saying, um, these are the absolute rules that I have when it comes to our interactions with each other.

Yeah, yeah, I feel that. And I love that you said rules because that's literally what I was thinking too. It's kind of like, yeah, yeah. Cause like I'm a big gamer, right? And so when I think of boundaries, I think of like, okay, like what are the zones that you're allowed to play this game in, right? Because like when you wander off of those zones, then the game's like, no, you can't play, or like stop, go back into those boundaries, right?

That that term that people use out of bounds, right? When you're going somewhere in a video game that you're not allowed to go into, you're out of bounds. This is not the game. You know, it's hilarious you bring that up because some of my favorite glitches when I was a kid was when the character would fall out of bounds and it would just become total chaos, right? Like it's completely uninhabitable. Yeah. So, you know, we're finding the metaphor there in the middle of all this.

And the and the other thing too that I kind of want to add to to what you said, right, is like boundaries are not only the rules, right? But it's also kind of how uh we teach people about how we want to be treated, right? It's it's teaching you how to love me or work with me or be my friend or be a good family member, right? These are my my rules, these are my expectations, right? And so, like uh I I think that's kind of how I describe my boundaries. It's just like, hey, these are this is how you love me. Right?

Yeah, that's a good way to put it, I think.

Yeah, yeah. Well, Dr. Bello, I mean, I'm sure you encounter this a lot when when you're working with your patients. When you when you're talking or explaining boundaries to someone, how do you usually put it?

So, yeah, I boundaries is something that I end up talking about with almost every one of my patients because it's like violating boundaries is such a common thing. Yeah. Um, you know, I think part of that may be a generational thing because a lot of the people that I'm working with are, you know, in their like late teens to late 20s, roughly. And so I think the generation uh that most of their slash our parents were is the boomers, and uh, I think, you know, I think culturally uh they're you know, the boomers had a lot of expectations uh that were put on us when when or that they put a lot of expectations on us growing up, and so boundaries have been uh just culturally very loose, I think. But the way that I sort of, you know, this is kind of a crude um analogy, but the way that I sort of describe it to patients is like, so when someone's coming to you uh and with an expectation of what they want from you, and you it's you know, you don't want to do that, um, I think of it as like, you know, if you're like the the cashier at Taco Bell and someone comes in demanding a Big Mac, right? You just you're not gonna get like super angry at them. You're just gonna be kind of confused and be like, no, that's not on the menu. If that's if that's really what you want from me, then go down the street. I'll show I'll tell you where the McDonald's is, but like don't come here or ordering that. That's not that's not something that you can have.

Yeah, I love that that's actually so good. Like, I'm gonna steal that from you. No, no, that's because like uh it makes sense to me, right? Because like, sure, like you're in a place where you expect to eat, right? But what they're asking for is not on the menu, right? It's like, and so it's just like I think about that, right? When like someone comes up to me, like let's say for work, right? It's just like, hey, like I need you to do this. I I can be like, hey, I that's great, but I literally cannot, right? Yeah, you're in the wrong spot. Yeah, yeah. And and so I love that you use the word expectations, right? Because like a lot of us, some of you know, I've been guilty of setting unrealistic expectations, right? Like I've I've been the toxic person before, and I've also experienced a toxic person, right? And it's it's like you don't know what you don't know. And so, like, you know, once you understand what your boundaries are, uh I think it becomes a little easier to empathize other people's boundaries, right? Because if they're important to you, right, like like at least for me, right, then I can also be like, oh, right, like these are important to you. I I don't want to, you know, ruin that or or mess that up, right? And so um so we know now what like kind of boundaries are, right? But what are healthy boundaries, right? Because like right uh Dr. Bello, you talked about a little bit, right? Like about those expectations, right? Um, not everyone's expectations are always in alignment, right? And so, like, how do we establish healthy boundaries, right? What do those look like essentially is kind of like what I'm asking, Olivia. What would you how would you establish?

Yeah, I mean, what I was thinking is the the issue a lot of times is um when we are creating our boundaries, the a lot of them stem from things like our preferences um and those kinds of things. But asking how do we make a healthy boundary, I think it's not always so clear-cut because what may be a healthy boundary for me might be really intrusive for you, right? Um and a lot of times too, sometimes subconsciously, I'm coming from the perspective of someone who does a lot of trauma work with clients. And so sometimes people have certain boundaries that come about from things like bad habits or maladaptive coping skills that they're not fully cognizant of. It's just these sort of subconscious inclinations that are serving to help the person feel safe, feel protected in a relationship or keeping a certain distance, but may actually be harmful to them, right? Like someone who maybe their boundary is they don't like to um speak up for themselves when they're at work, right? And they see it as I'm just gonna clock in, clock out, get my paycheck because being assertive uh makes me very anxious, right? And on a certain level, it's working for them, right? But at the same time, you have the question of is this sustainable long term, right? When I I this is something that I really like to explore with a lot of my child clients because they when you're a child, you're used to adults telling you what to do, right? Your life is can is completely controlled by the adults in your environment and around you who are telling you, now to do this, now do this between your parents, your teachers, everybody. So when I work with young children and we get to a certain point in treatment where they're doing pretty well, I always like to shift the focus to learning some self-empowerment skills. And I think boundaries come about from that. When we talk about empowering a child to learn how to be assertive, to learn how to speak up for themselves, that's working on boundaries of exploring those boundaries, right? On what's going to work for this child. Because again, everybody's definition of a healthy boundary is different. So the thing that I fall back on is um I have the child sort of explore their own personal values first, right? So exploring what is it in your life that is important to you first? Is it family? Is it um is it um friendships? Is it other things? Like um, are you trying to, you know, be financially successful? You know, a child's idea of financial success. Um, are you more uh closely connected to nature? Do you like to be very social or do you prefer more quiet time? Like exploring those kinds of personal boundaries, and then from there, once once the client has been able to kind of identify sort of their top five or six or whatever, then it's a conversation of okay, you need to be making choices that align with these values, because ultimately, if you're trying to prioritize being happy, feeling good, and following your idea of success, then you need to make sure that you're making decisions that align with your personal values. So I think when it comes to creating healthy boundaries, understanding your own values and understanding what is important to you, which is a process of self-discovery. Uh but it needs to happen if you want to reach a point where you can make those healthy boundaries and understand what they actually are, like being intentional with them rather than just moving out of habit.

Yeah, yeah. And and it's funny because like you touch on a lot of things that I see commonly describe as healthy boundaries, right? But what really resonates with me is like the word empowerment, right? Uh, which comes with self-discovery, like you said, right? Like you, if you don't really know what you are passionate about, what you care about, or what's important to you, it can be a little difficult to establish those boundaries. Um and speaking of which, uh, so if if someone is having trouble with that, Dr. Bello, like um, how do you kind of help them navigate those challenges, right? Because sometimes like I I know that when I was going through therapy myself, like I had to kind of literally unravel like kind of what was what was important to me, right? Like how uh how do how do I know what's healthy for me and what's not, right? Like, is it because I want more autonomy, right? Or or less codependence, or is it because I want to be uh self-sufficient or whatever? How do you how do you help somebody kind of establish that?

So I think like Olivia said, it it really starts with understanding yourself, self-discovery, looking at who you are. And I, you know, on that topic, like I think it's really important for people to differentiate like who they are and what they uh you know what they do. Because my patients often go, oh well, I'm an angry person, right? Or I'm I'm just a depress a depressed person, or I'm no good or whatever. And these are not like who they are, it's the way that they manage their emotions typically. Okay, you know, and so really I think what Olivia was saying is is absolutely true that who we actually are is really like what are our core values, what drives us, what makes us tick, you know, or go in this world. Um and so like, yeah, if uh and then the other thing to to differentiate is kind of like what we want to do, like specific things uh or what our goals are um versus again who we are. So, like, you know, if you want to be somebody who's uh out in nature, so wanting to be out in nature is more of like a want, that's an activity, versus like, you know, it's a value of mind to protect the planet for future generations kind of thing. Or like, or you know, if you if you're somebody who likes to be outdoors because you like the exploration aspect. So being a curious person would be more of like who you are versus like how you express that curiosity, you know, is by being outside, traveling, etc. You know. Um, so it starts with that. Um, and then, you know, typically, you know, most of my patients, uh, they're bound because you know, there's boundaries with yourself and boundaries with other people. Most often people are coming to me because of problems with boundaries with other people. So, you know. So from there, usually, you know, uh typically I don't have to ask, I usually just listen because they're usually giving me the answer to this question. But it's like, all right, describe to me, you know, if they're not giving it to me straight away, I'll ask, like, okay, describe to me like a couple examples of situations or like interactions with another person where you didn't feel very good, where you felt uncomfortable, sad, angry, uh nervous, whatever. And then from there, you know, I'll I'll usually pick up on like, okay, there's a clear pattern of every time, you know, somebody says this kind of thing to you, uh, that it makes you really angry. So, but you're not, you're either blowing up and you know, expressing that anger in like an overly dramatic way to where people don't take you seriously, or you're you're flipping it on yourself and going, oh, well, I don't, I don't deserve to like have that boundary, or I don't this this person's needs are more important than mine, so you know I'm just gonna take it even though it doesn't feel good to me. Right. And so then that's where I'll point it, you know, I'll point that out to them. Um, and then we have the whole side conversation about, you know, emotions are basically our compass through life. So, you know, if we're angry, typically that's uh because somebody is we're you know, there's a threat in our environment, right? Because anger is like the the fight part of the fight or flight response. Yeah. Anxiety or fear is the you know, is the flight version, yeah, right? Which is why when you're anxious or nervous, your impulse is to avoid, you know, run away. Right. Versus anger, it's to do something outward to defend yourself, typically. Right. So, you know, so I'll I'll point that out to them and go, okay, look, anger is actually not a bad thing. A lot of people think, you know, it's like particularly women are not allowed to be angry, right? So uh it's helping them understand that the anger is there, you know, whether you want like it or not, it's it's there and it's uncomfortable because it probably is telling you to go fight the person across from you, right? Or yell at them or do something, whatever. But it's you recognize it and then you go, okay, well, what is this person doing that is like that I'm perceiving as a threat? You know, are they insulting me or are you know, am I in a romantic relationship where my partner is like pressuring me to do sexual things that I don't want to do? Um and so rather than going, oh okay, well, you know, they they want this or they need this from me, otherwise they're gonna leave me, right? So abandonment stuff is often tied in there for for anger. Um, you know, I'm just gonna take it and not, you know, and feel really sad or guilty or gross or whatever afterwards. Instead, it's you like channeling that anger and expressing it in a like in a balanced sort of productive way. So it's hey, no, we're not doing that. Again, it's not on the menu, right? Uh and if the partner continues to push, then you know, you have to your emotions are telling you what you need, which is this person to not be in my life.

And you take them out of the restaurant.

Or break up with them, right? If it's from a romantic partner.

Yeah, that emotional reaction that people have is the gut feeling that everyone talks about, right? It's just hard because, you know, as you're talking, it's really clear that so much of having good boundaries comes from this process of doing a lot of work in regards to self-reflection and tapping into the uncomfortable emotions that you have as well. Right. And this is a thing that I tell a lot of the kids is like, yeah, anger is natural, but I it doesn't feel good, you know. Like, I mean, there's biological reasons why those emotions feel bad, right? These emotions survival. It's survival, exactly. It's it's safety stuff, right? Like you say, you your instinct is to you want to hit the person across you because you're feeling threatened in some way. And so that's the problem sometimes when you are challenging someone, especially in a therapeutic space, to do that self-reflection, is inevitably you're gonna hit moments where you're bringing up those uncomfortable feelings, even just as someone is sitting on the couch. Like there's nothing even happening in the direct environment where they are being threatened. But yeah, it's all in the mind. And and a lot of people they don't want to do it because it sucks, right?

It's uncomfortable. It's like it's unraveling things, right? You're because like uh you think of like uh the the knot situation, right? Where I hate untying knots, right? But that's essentially what you're doing with yourself, right? Is you're untying all the knots that have accumulated at through your development, right? And so like that journey of self-discovery, right? The work that you do to like understand like where is this fear? Because fear is also something that happens, right? Or where is this anger coming from? And then how do I regulate, right? Like, how do I regulate that and communicate those needs in a way that is accessible to the other person?

Um Yeah, I mean, the the most common question that I get from therapy patients is like, why would I want to sit here and talk about those things and feel those things? Like, well, why wouldn't I just want to feel better? It's like because you have the emotions are there again, whether you want them or not. So it's it's more productive to face them, know them, understand them, and figure out how you can actually use them to move yourself forward instead of them just popping up and surprising you. And then, you know, because like often I'll ask, well, like clearly the way you have been managing your emotions hasn't been serving you very well up to this point. So uh how about we try something different and actually like figure out how we can take those and transform them into something that gets you to a happier place?

Yeah. And the idea with talk therapy is that it's essentially low-level exposure therapy, right? And exposure therapy, yeah, is this idea that you expose yourself to the things that make you feel anxious or scared or whatever else. So as you are working through these uncomfortable feelings, as you're examining maybe unhealthy boundaries or as you're talking about situations in the past where you might feel guilty or embarrassed or ashamed about how you handled the situation, it's kind of bringing back these uncomfortable feelings and you're exposing yourself to feeling that way in a setting where you are safe and you can do that at your own pace. So that's part of it essentially, is everybody who goes through therapy is essentially doing that level of exposure therapy.

Yeah. Well, that's why they they use that word containment or like hold uh, you know, our job is to hold space for people because it's uncomfortable for them to carry those emotions around. So we're sort of like, you know, holding their hand and like okay, I got this.

Yeah, yeah, coach. I like as you guys were talking about it, I've my mind went to like workouts and gyms, right? Like going to do the therapy, you're essentially working your brain out, right? Because like, because like it just like rejection, just like you know, all of those exposures, right? It hurts less or it it becomes less difficult the more you work out, the more you are exposed to it. Exactly. And so, like, yeah, we're doing mental gymnastics. But the good kind, the good kind.

And to use a justice. Analogy, it's the same idea where you need to go at a pace that works well for you. Like if you if you hit the gym and you immediately try lifting 100 pounds when you've never with lifted weights before, you're probably gonna injure yourself. And mental health work is the same way where if you go in too hard all at once, you might really um bring up too much all at once. Yeah, pull a mental muscle and overwhelm yourself, and then you get people who never come back. Yeah.

Well, and it's interesting because like, you know, we in psychodynamic terms refer to like resistance and you know, kind of put it on the patient as like, oh, well, they're just not ready kind of thing. And I mean, whether it's conscious or unconscious, them avoiding certain topics is kind of setting that boundary with us of like, I'm not ready to go there yet. And, you know, we obviously probe and see, you know, kind of poke the sore spot a little bit and see what uh what they are ready for, but we have to be like super mindful of like not pushing too hard because A, it can be damaging once they leave the room if you just like tear them open and then go, okay, well, that's an hour, goodbye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have fun dealing with it. Like, you know, it's pacing of a therapy appointment is so important because you have to like make sure to like put the band-aid on before you send them off.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I've definitely had humbling experiences in my practice where I have had my clients assert those boundaries at me, right? Where I was doing my job of probing and I pushed a little too hard in the moment for what the person, you know, I I thought on my end, I think they're ready for this challenge. I'm gonna say this or do this thing to see what the reaction is. And the person sitting across from me is like, nope, that's too much, not today. And they communicate it to me. And you know, I can see as someone who does this professionally, like, okay, I recognize that I was doing my job of pushing, but in the moment it was too much for them. And also say, I'm glad that they asserted a boundary with me. Like I had a teenage client who got very upset and basically told me to stop interrupting them, right? And from my perspective, I thought I'm helping them organize their thoughts, right? By I kept summarizing what I was hearing them say. But for them, it was like, I'm trying to think of what to say and you keep interrupting me. And they told me that. And again, a humbling moment for me where I just, you know, held myself back and stayed a little more quiet for the rest of the session. But then moving forward, I thought I was so glad that that client felt comfortable enough to express that boundary to me because it shows that they trust me enough to honor that boundary too, right? Which is something else about boundaries is you also have to be at a place where you can understand and respect other people's boundaries too, just as much as you are able to assert them yourself.

Yeah, you gotta dish it and take it.

Yeah. Well, your original question was what do I do to help people do that? Yeah. Uh I mean, something I do on typically the first session when I know that somebody uh is specifically gonna be a therapy client and not like a med management client, um, is that I'll tell them, like, look, at some point over the course of therapy, there may be times where you get angry at me. It is so important that you in the moment as it's happening that you tell me that. And I and just know because you know, usually at that point I've I've done the intake, I know what their kind of relationship patterns are. Uh I'll tell them, like, I know that your parents, your prior partners, whatever, anytime you tried to give them any sort of criticism, they didn't receive it and they punished you further. Oh. That will never be the case in here. And so, you know, by doing that, I'm right on the onset, I'm helping them by sort of like inviting them to set boundaries with me. Yeah, and laying it out very plainly that like I will respect those.

Yeah. So like, even if like like, because I'm thinking of like two different kinds of people, right, that we kind of discussed, right? There's the the scared and then there's the combative. Maybe there's more, I don't know. But so like when you say that, right, like it's important to do it right away. For someone who, let's say, is used to doing it often but not in the right way, you're kind of giving them space to be like, it's okay, just do it. And then like you can kind of coach them through, like, all right, so maybe not not so much volume, or maybe not so much aggression, right? And then maybe the opposite for for like the for the person who's scared, right? It's just like, okay, do a little more, right? To to be like more assertive or whatever. So I kind of like that, yeah.

And and sometimes even if you do invite it, they it may take them a little bit as you're building rapport to for them to like actually feel comfortable with it. And so, you know, our job is to like be super attuned to like little like micro emotions that will come up. Oh yeah. So I got really good at this during the pandemic because you know. All I had to work with was this. Right. But you can see if you're really paying attention, there will be moments where like all of a sudden you'll just get like a quick flash of sadness.

Uh-huh.

And so often if if I hear a patient, or if I notice that and I hear the patient like just keep going with their story, um, or if I'm saying something and I catch them doing it right, uh, uh I'll I'll go, I'll stop and go, was I just noticed uh it seemed like some anger or some disappointment. Something just came up on her. And did you notice that? And and they'll like pause and go, Yeah, you know, I didn't like how you said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so again, it's another tactic to sort of invite them to do that. And you know, in real time, instead of it like a hypothetical, at some time I might make you angry. I clear you clearly just had a reaction to what I was saying. And so I'm pausing and going, I'm uh that's not to be ignored. Yeah. Like I'm here to listen. You please tell me what I just did so that I can respect that boundary. So Sana? Oh, yeah, go ahead.

I was gonna say I have a great story uh experience with that, where as you were talking about noticing those quick flashes of emotions. I had a client once who, for most of the session, was sitting back on the couch, very relaxed, and kind of what I'm doing now. Their head was a little back with their chin turned up as they're talking to me and looking at me, right? Because they're feeling very relaxed and their body is physically very open. And then I was saying something that I was really challenging them in the moment because I wanted this, uh, I wanted this reflective moment where everything kind of came together. And their body shifted and their gaze shifted at me ever so slightly where they just kind of tilted their head a little bit forward and they were just, I know, they were gazing at me just a little bit more intently, right? And then the next thing that they said to me was they were very upset at me for essentially triggering them in that moment, right? So I realized looking back was like, wow, I could literally see the body cues of kind of getting more combative and their gaze kind of, you know, this is the extreme example where they're leaning forward and combative moment, but in the in the moment, it was just the slight tilt forward of the head and the slight more focused gaze at me that signaled that that anger was coming inside of them. And again, these kinds of moments are important in the therapeutic process because it is the client and you really pushing the limits of the boundaries that you have, right? And moments where the client realizes, hey, this boundary is working for me and I'm gonna express that, or wow, what I thought was working for me before is not working anymore. And we need to either take a step back and maybe do a little bit more reparative work, a little bit more work with building up those regulatory skills before we jump back into opening up Pandora's box. Or it's like I've even had clients say, Hey, I want you to push harder. I want you to be more direct with me, right?

It sounds like there's like a dance almost. Like it's like it's almost, it's always it's always in flux, right? Like even as a professionals, right? Like you guys experience a little bit of humility, right? Because like nobody's perfect, right? And so what I'm what I'm hearing from from all of this is like boundaries obviously require a lot of communication and checking in, right? Like we could be all knowing and wise and whatever, right? But it it really is kind of like a two-way street, right? Like we always have to kind of check in with that. And then the other thing that I'm hearing too, it's a it's it's about empowering, right? It's about giving people the space to communicate their needs and feelings and increase that autonomy and self-respect, right? I want to get a little messy because we've been talking. Uh you mentioned something about um, you know, folks talking about their boundaries with other people, right? And so I kind of want to talk about how we do this dance in different settings, right? And so uh, you know, we talked a lot about work, right? And and identity and and separating the the two between ourselves, right? And so I want to talk about workplace boundaries, right? Because that's where I feel like if you're smiling, that's where I feel like, you know, a lot of folks I see struggle with this. They struggle with setting what what looks like healthy boundaries for them, right? And, you know, time and time again, I I always kind of think of myself as like, I've got a lot of nerve. Like, I got a lot of nerve talking to my bosses that way, or uh are or you know, just kind of like emboldening people to to step up for themselves, right? And so, like, um I want to talk about workplace boundaries. What are what do healthy ones look like? Or what are some things, or Dr. Bellow, you probably hear this more uh often, right? Because I don't know if the kids have a lot of workplace.

I I'll let Dr. Bellow answer first.

Yeah. Like what what do you what are some common workplace boundary issues that you hear about?

Literally this week, uh I had a patient who's like working at a big law firm um to where she's like fresh out of law school. And so everyone just keeps putting more and more stuff on her to the point where she's sleeping like five hours a day on average, and all of her waking time uh is spent doing stuff at work. Um and yeah, it's uh you know, this is like a workplace culture topic, but um essentially like you managers have to encourage employees to be able to say no. And you and and you know, as somebody who would go in as like an I.O. psychologist, you know, industrial organizational psychologist or like um a leadership coach, that kind of stuff, basically you teach the employees um that you know, it's not just no, I'm not gonna do this, it's asking a couple questions before you just say yes. So clarifying the expectations. Yeah, clarifying the expectations, um, particularly with like deadlines and stuff. So, you know, if you already know what's on your plate and you know that like, okay, uh the boss slash clients have already asked me for these things by this Friday, I know that that's gonna take me. Like, I if if I'm not given anything else, I'm gonna be working all of my hours to Friday and just barely get these things in, right? So when somebody now brings you something new, it's hey, I don't think I have additional time for that because you previously told me that that these were the priorities, that getting this stuff done by Friday was what you know you expected of me. If you add this thing to my plate, which of these things is gonna become a lower priority that I may not get done by that deadline you originally asked me.

Yeah, yeah.

Right? If you're in a toxic work environment, they're gonna say, that's bullshit, you need to get both done. You know, like uh take the work home or stay late or something, right? And if that, if that's like a pattern, so like with this patient, obviously um that has been a chronic pattern to where uh again, that's how she ended up, she only sleeps five hours a night. Um, you know, I had another patient who worked for Amazon in the factory and was like sleeping in his car in the parking lot. Wow, wow, because of the the way that the shifts were. Um and yeah, and I think, you know, this is a again a conversation for on a grander scale of just American society uh and culture, but I think with where we're at with capitalism, you know, the expectation is that people are supposed to like just you know grind uh as long as they can and any sort of like attempt to have you know work-life balance we talked about last time. Yeah, I brought it up. It's like yeah, yeah, it's like it's frowned upon, or you're seen as like weak, or you know, whatever. And then again, a lot of my patients had these sort of expectations set on uh them as kids. Um, and so they've internalized that like I'm not good enough unless I'm performing at this level or I'm saying yes to everything or whatever. So like we have to unlearn that. Like it's not fair for people in power to expect, you know, these like like basic basically people to sacrifice their mental health, yeah, you know, or time with their family or whatever, um, you know, for the sake of like generating more profits for the company.

Yeah. I mean, so so you bring up a really good point, right? Like, and I don't I don't want to bash on all all management, right? Because there's some leaders out there that do care and stuff. Really, where a lot of the obstacles come from, and we talked about this earlier, right, is the person itself, right? Like the person not enforcing or or communicating their boundaries, right? Uh I I can't tell you how many people I've I've talked to where they're like, I'm too scared to to say what I need. Or um, you know, if I if I if they talk to me a certain way, I'm gonna blow up in their face, right? And so, like, what do you what do you do for people like that? Like, like, how do you kind of help them? Like, hey, it's okay to have boundaries, right? Because like, for like I can't tell you, like, every time when I when I tell them, I'm like, go do it, see what happens. And it ends up like the boss is like, no, I don't care. Like, I don't need you to do all that. Just do this thing, and and then say it's like, oh my God, like I didn't know, like, how do you help them get over that obstacle?

I mean, the the problem is that like boundaries are parts of relationships, and relationships are a two-way street. You know, as much as you could be doing everything correctly when it comes to setting your own boundaries and communicating those boundaries, but if the other person is not receiving them or respecting them, then you are unhappy no matter what. And as Brian was talking about uh work-life balance and everything, I was thinking about how when you come into a job, there is a certain amount of expectations that are communicated to you, right?

Yeah, interview process. That's yeah, yeah.

And so um, you know, I think when for certain jobs, there is an expectation of you need to be committing all of your time to this or you need to be ready to commit all your time to this. And if that is not a good boundary for you, then it comes back. Are you able to accept that boundary and tolerate it and follow it? And if you're not, then it's not gonna work for you. And then, same back when you're communicating to management, like maybe you've been at a certain position for a while, you have a good relationship with your supervisors, it flows really well, and you are asserting yourself. If that manager or supervisor or whoever is not respecting when you're asserting yourself, then yeah, you're gonna be unhappy. There's gonna be conflict, and it's not gonna be a good place for you. So I think when I work with clients who is like, how do I feel comfortable asserting myself? It's helping them understand, listen, it's not your job to get the other person to respect you. Right? Like, and and just telling them that and preparing them for that, I think helps assuage a lot of the anxiety that they might be having about the response and just accepting. You have to accept that certain things are going to be out of your control. And so then you're more open to, hey, this might not go my way, but I'm prepared for that, right?

I see. Okay. So like knowing what you have the power to control versus what's beyond your control. Right. I I think that's that's some pretty sound advice. Cause like, yeah, like for if even if you do know what your boundaries are, right? Like it don't call me after a certain time, right? Or uh if you're gonna tell me like 10 things are important, which ones do you need me to do first, right? Like, uh, if they're not gonna hear it, they're just not gonna hear it. And so then the power is on you to like do something about it, yeah, enforce it. Yeah. Right. So, so we talked a little bit about work. Uh, let's move on into some other scenarios and settings, right? Let's talk about friends and family, right? Because some of our friends and family might not know what boundaries are or expectations, right? Um, I remember uh, you know, seeing this a lot in my family, and I'm gonna put them on blast a little bit, right? But like there was there were some expectations that like, you know, for the longest time I I didn't realize that they were unrealistic until I was older, right? But like the idea that like you trust family no matter what, right? Like it's just like this absolute rule, like no matter what, we we we care about them and and we trust them, right? And it took a while for me to learn, like, no, you care about them when they care about you, right? And so, like when when we're trying to set healthy boundaries with our family members, right? Like, what do what do those look like, right? Because we have a lot of family members that like expect things out of us, right? And so, like having that conversation with your mom or your dad can get a little complicated. Um Olivia, you deal with a lot of kids youths, right? And so, like, how do you help them navigate those boundaries?

Well, I think um it goes back to that conversation starting with talking about your values, right? Is family something that's it is important to you? Is your relationship with your parents or your siblings or whoever else, is that something that you value, or is that is that something that is less important to you, right? Because um the thing about family is it's not as easy to break away from family when things are not going well as it is from coworkers or peers or friends. And so there is a lot of there's less uh freedom to maybe set a boundary or have conflict or something else because if you get in a big fight with a friend or a partner, then you can terminate that relationship. Yeah, dip out and move on to next same with work too. I think work especially, right? Yeah, it's easy, depending on the situation, to move on. But with family, it's really difficult sometimes. And even if you're someone who does not value family, does not have a good relationship, the actual breaking away from family can still be very difficult and very emotional. So again, you start with looking at your values. Are these relationships important to you? Right. And then again, a conversation about control. What are you what do you have control over? And what you do have control over is again, understand your boundaries, communicate them a certain way, make sure that you maintain them and make sure that they're being maintained. And then honestly, the thing about it's it's tough because sometimes the answer is just how are we gonna tolerate when your boundaries are crossed? Right. I have an example with a client who was a little bit older. They were uh in their early 20s, and we were having a conversation about substance use where their parents were, they lived with their parents and their parents were very unhappy about the substance use, and it became a big fight. And they were venting that to me. And I kind of was like, if you're not in a position where you can get away from your parents and you still want to use, then I think the solution here is we just need to be ready. How are you gonna prepare for those moments where your parents are unhappy about this? Because I, if from my mind, I couldn't see an alternative. It was either you stop the substance use or you move out, which was not possible at that moment in time. So then the other option is you need to learn to tolerate your parents being upset with you. And again, this is a conversation of values, right? If the substance use was really important to them, then you gotta learn to tolerate other people having feelings about that, right? So sometimes the solution when it comes to family relationships is um looking reflecting in, right? Looking at the emotional reaction that you're having to these interactions, whether it is boundaries being respected and it reinforces positive aspects of the relationships, or it's boundaries being violated, and you have to kind of learn to either make peace with that or decide what you'd like to do next if it's really causing you a lot of difficulty.

Yeah, because like to your point, right? Like as a as a child, right, or an adolescent, uh, they can't necessarily emancipate to go off, right? Right. Exactly. As adults, it's it's a little bit easier, right? Like my my experience with severing temporarily the Ties between my family because I wasn't feeling uh fulfilled. Uh I felt abused and taken advantage of, it was devastating. Even as an adult, like I felt like I was, I felt guilty. I felt like I was the worst son in the world. Uh, how could I do this to my mom? How could I do this to my sisters?

Um And those are really hard feelings to grapple with. Yeah.

I didn't want to do it. I I literally, if it weren't for the help of my friends, my therapist, and everything, because like it's everything I that that went against what I was taught, right? Like again, the the absolute rule you care about family no matter what.

Well then, especially as as Latinos, like we got we got all the act, everyone who knows that you're not talking to whatever family member and they're like, oh, but that's your mother or that's your father. Like you have to talk to them. Like, thanks, guys.

Yeah, not helping. Yeah, it's it's so it's interesting, right? But it's just like at the end of the day, like, you know, what I what I took from my my therapy, right, is just that like if I am expressing something that's important to me and someone is making me feel guilty about it, like that's not a respect that that that I'm being given, right? They're not respecting my boundaries, they're not honoring me. And so uh that kind of person doesn't serve me because that's what I establish is important to me, right? I want to surround myself with people who care about my growth because that's important to me. Uh-huh.

And so it sounds like that's a boundary that you carry in your family relationships as well. Some people might have different expectations between friends and families, family members, but it sounds like for you, you carry that boundary into your family relationships as well, which takes a lot of courage.

Yeah. No, trust me, it took a year and a half. Yeah. So like to first of all figure out what it was that I cared about, and then and then figure out how to communicate that to then not just my family, but like that that's a boundary that I carry with myself across all different kinds of relationships. We talk about work, right? Like that's something when I get hired, like I that's the first thing I say. I'm like, are you going to invest in me? Are you going to care about my growth? What is the path for growth, right? When I talk about relationships, which you know, we we kind of hinted at back and forth, right? It's just like, you know, what are we in alignment, right? Like I care about these things. What do you care about? Are they in alignment? What am I willing to compromise? And so, like, you know, essentially what I establish is like, you know, I don't, while I do want to share things with you, I don't want to be codependent, right? I I want to be my own person, but I also want to help you in any way I can uh to realize your dreams, right? And that's to me, like that's like a healthy, you know, uh relationship and healthy boundaries, right? And so um it's just it's really interesting though, like right when when you don't have the work put in, right? With if when you haven't figured out what's important to you, uh, when you haven't figured out how to regulate fight or flight, yep, right, like how crazy and chaotic it could all get. Yeah. Um and even when you have all that, the checking in, the dance, right? It's just like when you step on your partner's toes, oop, okay, go back to the the stance that you're back in and then work work back.

Yeah, because the thing about the therapeutic relationship and the therapeutic space is that the checking in and the communication is the setting. Like that in and of itself is the setting and the expectation that is being had in a therapeutic space. But with a romantic partner or with a family member or friend, you guys aren't doing, you know, emotional check-ins. Tell me how you're feeling today, you know.

Or some people do.

It's a weird weird. I mean, yes, you want to get them to that point. But I feel like for the most part, in the therapy space, the communication is the expectation. In our normal relationships, it may not always be the expectation. It may not always be the pattern. And that doesn't mean that those kinds of relationships are bad necessarily, but I think what you're getting at is that the conflict that can come about from boundaries being crossed or whatever else, I think a lot of that is because we're not talking to our friends the same way we talk to our therapist.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And no mostly. I like I think too, especially with like the younger generations. Like, I mean, I'm guilty of it too, right? Like I vibe a lot. Like I'm always like uh uh, you know, maybe because I'm an emotionally sensitive person too, right? But like you talked about like how you notice like subtle changes in posture, right? Like I'm picking up on that, I'm picking up on tone, I'm picking up on actions and stuff like that. And so, like, if the vibes are off, you know, like my little brain is just like, yo, what's up? You know, but again, like I said, I have nerve, like I have a lot of nerve, like I will call it out because again, of all the experiences that I went through, right? And because of the help that therapy has taught me, like this is just my way of pointing out something that that doesn't feel right, right? And so it's just like I realize that I I'm the exception, not the rule. And so it's it's interesting to me, like, you know, how people communicate that and and whether or not they even choose to, right? Because like, like I said, like there's a lot of people in my life where I see them and I'm like, why didn't you say something at that point, right? Or or hey, like you looked visibly uncomfortable. Like you you just take that, like that's crazy, right? Because they're not in that situation, like of the kid, the way where they have to tolerate it, right? It's like, hey, but what were you gonna say?

I was just gonna say, and for some people, being asked a direct question like that is crossing their boundary and they're not gonna want to answer, you know. Yeah. I thought of something interesting too, which is how I think um it's interesting to live in a day and age with social media because I think social media has done away with a lot of the casual boundaries we have with acquaintances and peers. We're now we're letting these people into very intimate details about our lives that in the past we may have only allowed friends, family members, and partners to be privy to that information. And now it's like, you know, I'm gonna update you on what I'm doing every three hours, you know, whether it's uh posting an update on Twitter or like an Instagram story, you know, even like the close friends layer of the Instagram stories. It's like bound I think in in the last decade, last 15 years, um, a lot of people's ideas of boundaries have really shifted into being a lot more casual and a lot more open with people that they maybe not have would have wanted to know that information about themselves prior to these this shift.

Yeah, and um you you bring up a really good point about like like values shifting, right? I think my values shift as I get uh got older too, right? Like I I started caring about different things, and so like yeah, it it really is a dance. It's just like you have to you know check in every now and then, like, but maybe not as often, right? And sometimes vibes are enough.

Um I wanted to oh yeah, I was gonna say I think you know, with with my uh you know, Taco Bell analogy earlier, like it and you know, with the social media, if you're basic, you know, if you have golden arches overhead, expect that people are gonna come in and ask for, you know, a Big Mac. So it it's sometimes the way that it will work with people is figuring out how they can sort of communicate again to or advertise to people that like I'm not that person that you can just come up and say these kind of things to, or come up and like grab me out in public. Um there was a YouTuber in the Pokemon space that literally just two days ago posted something about how like when he was at tournaments, people will just go up and they'll they'll ask to take a picture, and then as the picture's being taken, they'll like grab him in his genitals. Whoa. Right. Oh my goodness. People are messy. Yeah.

They're so messy. Oh my god.

People making like very sexual fan art of him. And he's like, Wow, I'm just a person. He's like, I'm very privileged to be where I am, but I think I'm gonna stop going to tournaments because you know, he's like, it's that's so awful.

There's a big conversation to be had with things like the influencer space and how social media rockets a lot of people to stardom, very average people, yeah. Uh who maybe are not ready to be in what I would consider a celebrity role. Right. Right? Even if you're just like us, like but um the fact that uh I think with social media too, the boundaries can sometimes be harder to see and understand. They're they're less tangible because it it social media is a one-sided relationship, right? And we've been talking about how relationships are two-way streets, but if you're a person posting to your followers, you're not having conversations with every single one of them. Right. And so it's the one way of the followers engaging with you. Parasocial. The parasocial relationship.

Oh my gosh, but let's take a moment to clarify that you are not entitled to anything with your influencer. You should communicate to them uh and allow them to communicate back whether or not they are in agreement with whatever you want to do. Because yeah, that's not how it works. Yeah, right? We're all individual people, whether you're engaging with me or a celebrity or whatever, it's it's respect. Like, you know, it's you're not entitled to it, no matter how much you subscribe or what kind of fandom you're in. Yep. Um they're a human being just like you, and it's it's all about respect.

And boundaries can change, right? So we're talking, you know, before we got over here, we were talking about the family stuff. So like family may have, you know, you have may have been more permissive because you haven't done therapy yet. And just like whatever. And uh and now you're out there trying to assert more boundaries with your romantic partner, your family, whatever. Um, and they might go, well, whatever, this was okay before. You know, and so like again, on the on that end, if someone in your life is like saying, Hey, that's not okay anymore, you have to respect that.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because like consent is like operates in a similar fashion, right? It's just like, hey, like I reserve the right to change my mind, just like you reserve the right to continue being around me or whatever, right? It's just like it that's what communication does. It gives people information to make decisions, informed decisions, right?

And so consent is basically the yes to boundaries, no.

Yeah. So so we're we're uh getting ready to wrap things up here. Uh, what are some takeaways that if uh you know, after you know yapping for for almost an hour here, what are some takeaways that you think the audience should should know about today's conversation? Olivia, let's start with you.

Yeah, I think really it it at the heart of all this is understanding that sometimes boundaries can be really, really hard to set. Sometimes we might want to avoid having those cons kinds of conversations because it might feel like we are starting a fight with somebody, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

It might feel like in telling someone that we are asserting a boundary, that we are, I don't know, angry at them or or being mean to them or again picking a fight with them. But that's really not what it is. Even if, you know, at if those kinds of emotions are coming up for you, then it's okay to recognize that. Um, but at the same time, asserting a boundary with someone isn't always gonna result in them being upset at you. In fact, I think a lot of us when we're on the receiving end of a good friend or someone that we're close to setting a boundary with us, we really respect that. You know, if it's a relationship that's really valuable to you, if it's one that you really honor, then the other person telling you what their values are, what their boundaries are, and again, expressing consent or lack thereof, then we really appreciate that. So even though expressing boundaries can be very, very hard, it can lead to really good moments of deepening certain relationships and being a little bit more vulnerable with a person that you're comfortable with in order to continue to build and grow that relationship too.

What about you, Dr. Bello? So I think something that I didn't quite articulate well earlier, but that is so important because this is like a common confusion in therapy, um, is that boundaries are not boundaries are basically like what you allow people to take of you. It's not the opposite, right? So it's not, oh, my boundary is I need hugs three times a day, right? Because that is that is you, that is a want that you have of another person, and that is not a boundary, right? It is what you allow people to, you know, uh get from you essentially. Um and so like as we kind of talked about at the beginning, that really starts with knowing yourself above all else and feeling worthwhile to be able to set those things. Um and then, you know, like Olivia was just saying, like ultimately making the hard decision of of you know, whatever possible, cutting people who, you know, you've done all the you've done the work, you've communicated to them, and there's a clear bat uh pattern of them just not respecting that. Because if somebody treats you like that, they don't value you, and that's a them problem, not a you problem, right? Nobody deserves more of you than you're willing to give. Um and so it there can be growing pains with establishing new social circles um or cutting ties with family or keeping family at a distance or whatever. Um, but ultimately, like, you know, everyone deserves that. Um so even if you're not feeling like that, if you hear this and you're not in therapy, let's do some therapy so we can get you to the place where you feel like you deserve to be able to do that.

No, not to hawk our services onto our audience or anything.

But yeah, with us, find a therapist and get to the place where you've you value yourself and feel like you deserve to be treated the way that you wanted to.

But yeah, well, what I got from from everything that you guys said is that like boundaries are are scary, but it's normal. It's very normal to feel scared, it's very normal to feel angry. That's kind of how we're built. But I think the important thing is to practice. Like practice uh navigating those emotions, practice communicating those feelings because you can only get better by practicing. And then the other thing that I got was that, you know, essentially, and this and this is kind of coming from a quote, right? What you tolerate, you teach, what you ignore, you approve, right? And so it's just like, yeah, like right. It's just kind of like, what are you willing to tolerate? Because that's essentially what you're teaching the the people that are engaging with you, right? And what are you ignoring because without your consent, you're kind of approving it, right? And so uh that's kind of what I took from that. But yeah, make sure that you guys are, you know, actively setting those boundaries. Be clear, be concise. Don't apologize for them, right? Unless you're like actively hurting people, but like don't apologize for them. You have every right to set them and and right, and that you don't necessarily uh have to expect that to happen, right? Because again, it it works two ways, right? The other person also has to be willing to do that. Um, so let's go ahead and wrap things up with a nice little let's lighten the mood a little bit. Uh Dr. Bello, we didn't get to ask you this last time, but uh, what type of brain do you think is sexy?

So typically creative artistic brands, people that are able to like uh basically create something new and original. Oh, okay. Um so right now, uh I mean, uh you know, I obviously as uh a nighttime musician here, um you know, my answer is usually some sort of musician. Right now, it's the band Sleep Token. Um I know they're like pretty trendy right now, but the fact that they just balls to the wall are creating music that they want to do and it's like resonating with people that you know uh I know that you know they had their peak blown up on TikTok during the pandemic, but like they just played in LA and like sold out uh I forget which stadium it was, but they you know they sold out one of the like venues over there um and doing you know music that is like eight-string guitars and super heavy screaming and all that kind of stuff sometimes, but then also like really soft piano ballads, and they're you know, and they're pissing off people in the in the metal scene, but they're making again music that's just resonating with people, and I just really respect that uh when people do think like create something that's original and that you know they're not listening to any doubters, but they're confident in what they're doing because it you know, presumably they believe in it.

Oh, that's so nice. I love that. So a creative, sexy brain. Yes. Well, that's gonna do it for today's episode. But we want to hear from you guys. What are some healthy boundaries that you guys are establishing out there, or what do healthy boundaries look like to you? Type your comments in the uh comment box below and stay tuned for our next episode. Thanks everybody and have a great day. Bye bye. Bye.